Tonight is my last 4e game
October 30, 2009 by shent_lodge
Filed under 4e
I think it is over. I just don’t feel the love for the latest version of Dungeons and Dragons in its current incarnation. Don’t say I did’t try to like the game. I ran it as a home game for almost a year, I ran dungeons for the RPGA for almost a year and in the end I am just not interested in the game anymore. So tonight will be my final 4e game, unless in my old age I “stroke out” and can’t remember I don’t like the game, but that is why I am making this post, to cover just that kind of emergency.
Last January, I posted What I am looking for in a RPG. In the end 4e falls short, it may be because of the lack of quality DMs in the area, or that I am an older player and I can remember when phones were attached to wires in the walls of our house unlike my peers. I don’t think I am part of the target audience for this game anymore. I see RPGs as more of a “role the dice” and talk and goof and make decisions as a group with the DM as the final judge. 4e is more of a card game/dice game hybrid where one player tries to tell a story and throws monsters and skill challenges and then rewards the players with impotent magic. The players all act as minor DMs telling you what the powers on their “cards” are doing to this beast and that. It is all meta-gaming and tactics and excruciatingly long combats combined with most expansive culmination monotonous rules bloat I have ever seen. OK 3.5 had major rules bloat too, but you could play a gnome without buying a second book. I suppose it is more fun for younger folks who don’t know any better and have bucket loads of money to give to the makers of the game. I am just not that eager anymore.
I remember better times with this game. The good news is that I am actively pursuing Pathfinder as a replacement game for 3.5e instead of 4e. So after tonight’s game, I will shelf the nine books I bought for the 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons, may they rest in piece.
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Like you, I tried 4e because I love DnD and wanted to keep up-to-date with it’s current incarnation… I bought the core books, DM Screen, and PHB2.. Read through all of them, was excited to try it, yet there was something that was bothering me… something other than the “Oh crap this is new and scary” feeling..
So my g/f and I play tested combat and then I ran a couple sessions with friends and it clicked.. As you said, it just seems more of a card game/strategy board game to me..
I’m not knocking it, if that is what people what to play, more power to them. I prefer 3.5 and now Pathfinder. I love it! I can’t wait till my Bestiary arrives from Amazon!
When I want less clunky and rules lite, I go with Savage Worlds. Sometimes the old saying holds true, “less is more.”
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That’s weird. I played 2e, 3e and 3.5, and 4e feels exactly like D&D to me.
But then, I must be one of those new kids who just doesn’t know any better.
Enjoy your game.
The guys in my group all said it felt more like a “card game/strategy board game” to them… which is good when that’s what you’re in the mood for. It plays pretty differently from 1e with no minis, which is what we’d ran before switching to 4e for a bit.
Lately it’s been more boardgames than anything (Arkham Horror!) which I’d definitely pick over 4e if I wanted the “card game/strategy board game” thing.
Stuart´s last blog ..RPG Stats: Doing More with Less
As I said to you before, you had probably the worst 4e experiences I’ve ever seen and your players seemed like characters right out of a bizarre Dunciad of RPG gaming, so it is not surprise to me when all your stories are horror stories that you’d end up quitting. In fact what surprised me is how long it took you to quit. I didn’t put up with Promethean: The Lost for more than like three sessions.
I was pretty much just passively waiting until you would make an overly generalizing grand finale post like this, and all I can say is: I was not disappointed. Epic story bro.
Wyatt´s last blog ..Flavor Text of Eden (And 4e!)
Like those people who can review gaming adventures without playing them through, I took a look at 4E without playing and went “URK! THE PAIN!” Tactical combat in RPGs is boring.
Viriatha´s last blog ..Inspirational Sights: Portugal
I pretty much agree entirely; and I have spoken to, and read of, many who have expressed exactly this. My circle didn’t last nearly a year. It does feel like some of us have been “left behind” (this is a purely personal opinion.) Thankfully there is so much else out there, but after playing mainly D&D for well over 20 years it’s weird to not be in the loop anymore.
Good luck on the Pathfinder game!
Consider giving it a try one of these days, Viriatha. You might actually find that tactical combat in RPGs is as fun as everyone is saying it is.
Heck, I’d go so far as to say that an RPG that lacks engaging tactical conflict resolution (combat being by far the most common manifestation of this) is impotent by comparison.
You might also give SpyCraft 2.0 and/or FantasyCraft a try as a 3.5 replacement. It’s different enough that it intrigues me, yet close enough to feel familiar at the same time.
4E definitely caters to a certain crowd and it’s perfectly fine not to be a part of that crowd. I’m currently running a 4E game, but I could see moving on to something else for awhile once that campaign is finished.
Hey all, Thanks for the comments.
What really killed it, was last night I thought “hey I will quick make a fighter for the game tomorrow, you know, something nice and easy. I had a tough week at work and a fighter would fit in nice…” I was using the Character Builder program and the cool powers were in books I did not have. Aargh! I had nine books so far.
I’ll run my goliath warden tonight, but when the game ends, I will be done with 4e but not done with fantasy RPGs. I am still too much a gamer. I just think I am turning in to a rpg version of a grognard.
shent_lodge´s last blog ..Say No to 4e
My feeling is that one of the reasons people struggle with 4e is that they have been conditioned (by video games and 3e) to play by the rules. In most video games you move from encounter to encounter, spamming the same four to eight buttons. In 3e there were rules for everything up to giving pet massage treatments to your familiar. Neither of these systems encouraged players to think outside the box. A few years ago I played an ad-libbed game with a bunch of kids. We all just made things up as we went along. It was fabulous fun. You can have that kind of fun with any rules system if you put away the books and play.
The formula is simple: DM describes scene; players ask questions looking for answers and/or advantages, then declare actions; DM sets odds/difficulty (if necessary) and calls for a die roll. The space in between the formula requires imagination. That’s where I think we’ve stumbled. We’ve tried to make a formula out of that (e.g., rules systems that tell you what the weather is, or that orcs wear paisley underwear.)
@Anarkieth actually the most fun I had with 4e was having the players run monsters out of the 4e monster manual. Setup was minimal with me just saying yes you can run a gnome; no you can not run a dragon. The players said they had more fun with the monsters because they had recharge powers. Each round the players rolled to see if they could use the power again on their next turn.
I do miss games where the DM says “well that sounds plausible I say it works.” A lot of 3.X games and 4e end with “well that sounds plausible roll a DC 45millionzillion acrobatics check to see if it works.. Oh you rolled too low the dragon attacks.”
shent_lodge´s last blog ..Say No to 4e
Firstly, yes Shent Lodge, you are not the target audience and neither am I. I’ve been playing D&D since the early eighties. But that’s a whole other post.
Secondly, I find it strange that most of you guys don’t like the tactical combat aspect. That is what I love about 4e! To me, D&D game combat has finally evolved to something like I always thought it should be.
Aside from combat, I don’t see what the big deal is. The idea that 4e is too rules heavy or restrictive is ridiculous. The great thing about this game, it’s true strength from it’s first inception, has been that you can take it, alter it or leave it. Each version of D&D is just a skeletal framework from which the DM and the players create their own version of what their game should be.
@Anarkieth, in my 4e game, I had the opposite experience. With 4e, myself and a number of others felt it was more geared AS a video game and some speculated that was the whole purpose of 4e rules changes. You get a handful of powers for each character. Throw the daily, encounter, at will, repeat the at will until monster is dead, healing surge PRN. As one of my players said, 4e feels like a lawyer’s game, very boxy rules and less imagination (no offense to lawyers out there
)
I felt 3.x let you be a bit more open. I agree 3.x had its share of rules bloat but I largely ignored the minutia and focused on the core game mechanics (which I tried in 4e too) unless it was something absurd like ‘I’m going to carry these 20 suits of full plate on my back’. Also, how many people have had the ‘grease’ spell or some other out-of-the-box thinking save a party’s butt in a battle?
Also, there is an aura or feel to the games. I just wasn’t feeling it with 4e like I did and do with 2e, 3.x and now Pathfinder. I can’t put my finger on what it is but the magic isn’t there in 4e.
@Rook
I agree 4e is extremely shiny as RPGs go in the combat arena. Something that lingered for me was why is my PC adventuring? Back in the day I had a goal of someday owning a keep and retiring rich and happy. I am not sure why my 4e PCs adventure anymore except to maybe get enough experience to make me want to buy another rule book.
shent_lodge´s last blog ..Tough Skeleton
@greentiger: I’d agree that 4e has a video-game feel to it. However, with a video game, you can’t choose to pick up the chair in the corner and beat someone over the head with it. My point was that when players and GM’s constrain themselves to the rules (e.g., spam at-will power until monster is dead) they will be less than satisfied with the game.
@shent_lodge: If you miss games where the GM says “well that sounds plausible I say it works”, you need to start one, or encourage your current GM to be more open to creative play. The 4e DMG2 has a write-up on this kind of stuff that could be used for any rules system. It specifically encourages that sort of play.
I understand how you both feel, but for our group it was the exact opposite. We had stopped playing because 3.5, once the group hit about 9th level, seriously bogged down. Prep was murder, combats were interminable, and there were definite balance issues – certain characters tended to dominate, and it got in the way of roleplaying.
We were very skeptical about 4e for the usual reasons (the obvious WoW influence, etc.), but then decided to give it a try about a year ago. Once we got over some of the unrealistic silliness (healing surges, hit point inflation, etc) we quickly discovered 4e’s strength: sheer playability and fun, with every kind of character always having something to contribute.
The thing is, we’re oldtimers who care most about roleplaying and story. So we’ve found that being able to get in and out of combat so quickly actually puts the emphasis back on the fluff that really matters. Our most recent sessions had some of the most fun NPC interaction and wild roleplaying we’ve ever had.
I have no doubt there are people who approach 4e more as a video game than an immersive fantasy experience. But I don’t think there’s anything in the system itself that discourages the classic D&D magic of four or five people tripping through their imaginations.
For anyone considering Pathfinder, don’t forget that you can see all of the rules including all monsters, at d20pfsrd.com. That site is an open SRD edited and maintained by almost 60 people today. Full disclosure, I created the site. Even fuller disclosure… This post is a shameless plea for more helpers
If you like Pathfinder and would like to help contribute to the biggest open SRD site for Pathfinder on the web, shoot me an email (address above).
Hey all, thanks for all the great comments.
I just got home from playing. I was at -13 hit points at the end of the final encounter as were two others (in the negatives and bleeding). I had a blast playing, they caught me in a good mood so I am not completely done yet. They asked me to help with a slot zero a module for Weekend in the Realms on Sunday. After Sunday I’ll be done.
I had a slightly different experience with 4e. Overall I really like the system, but I will admit that my group and I became accustomed to 3e and the new edition felt “off” when we played. When 3e came out we had no problem dropping 2e, as we enjoyed 3e a great deal more. That didn’t really happen with 4e. That same feeling of “Man this rocks” just didn’t happen for us. I can see some of where people say it feels like old D&D, as I stared with the older editions when I was a kid, but it also has a very video game kind of feel too. My first reaction to the game was that it would make a great superhero game, which was echoed by a member of my group. The tactical aspect that everyone complains about didn’t really bother us as we just ignored it due to the fact we still use hand drawn maps and pewter minis. Honestly, we often play with no minis at all. When we played 4e, for about 3 months, it was fun but we got bored with it fairly quick and decided to go back to 3e. I can’t really pinpoint what didn’t work, but like I said before it just didn’t feel right.
We started with the Pathfinder betas, liked what we saw and stuck with it. Now Pathfinder is our D&D game of choice. I know that PfRPG is not technically D&D, but given that we are pretty much die hard 3e players, to us it feels more like a new edition than 4e, which feels like a completely different game.
While I can’t say that I will never another 4e books or play in a one shot 4e game, I highly doubt there will be a 4e campaign in our future. We are extremely happy with what Pathfinder has done with the 3e rules and expect to be gaming with Pathfinder for a long time.
It doesn’t matter if it is OD&D, 2e, 3.x/Pathfinder, or 4e, they are all good in their own way. I know everyone likes to argue about which version is better, but honestly the best edition of any game is the one you enjoy playing the most.
“I was using the Character Builder program and the cool powers were in books I did not have. Aargh! I had nine books so far.”
This was a contributing factor for me quitting 4e too. I have six 4e books, 4 of them for character building. The previous D&D versions, the PHB was enough for me as a player. The only editions I went beyond the PHB was when I started to venture into game mastering. Even as a GM, I still didn’t require more than the DMG and MM and possibly a campaign setting book. With Pathfinder I have three books I am using (as a GM), the core rule book, the bestiary and the Pathfinder Campaign Setting.
Firstly let me say that I will play any D&D edition at any time, as long as I’m with a good group. If you can’t have fun playing 4E I have to question who you are playing with. Its still D&D to me. I’ve found the powers make all the races and classes extremely fun and much more balanced than before.
And what’s wrong with players describing their attack on a monster and taking a greater role in story telling? Our group regularly asks its players to do that when they crit or kill a monster. Sometimes they read the description on the power, but more often than not they describe something more interesting. Its great fun for us a players. I guess I’ve always seen D&D as communal story telling and not just a one sided thing.
Tactics? Hello! Where did D&D start from. Miniature war games people. If there aren’t tactical aspects what are you left with? Role a dice a move on to the next players turn? I enjoy playing with minis or using a digital gaming client to visualize the battle. I like figuring out how to best use my powers. I like that the battles are much more dynamic than before. If those things aren’t happening in your games, and don’t make them more fun, I have to wonder why?
4E battles, in my group’s experience, are almost always faster paced than 3.x. We normally get in about 2 battles per night, but with 4E we have often gotten 3 in. That means we can have just as much excitement for the “door kickers” and still have lots of time for role play and character stuff.
Don’t even get me started on the number of books. Do you even realize how many 3.x books there were? Seriously? When someone says that as a reason why they don’t like 4E I just can’t accept that as valid read. D&DI allows you to make all those characters without buying another book. In my opinion you can just buy the core books and then pay for your D&DI subscription as a player and you are done. You have access to all the content as a player with one book and a subscription. That seems like a pretty good deal to me. Not to mention less trees dying
.
So rather than feeling left out because you have 9 books but still have access to everything in the character creator, I prefer to think of that as a positive.
Bottom line for me is that everyone has their opinions. There is nothing wrong with not liking 4E. Its just hard for me to see complaints, especially the number of books, that just seem reaching to me.
We have friends in our group that aren’t 4E fans. Its more like they just don’t like change all that much rather than they hat 4E. But most of them still play 4E and like it because we have fun as a group regardless of the version we use.
I feel lucky to have a group that I know I could play any edition with and have fun. I don’t mind 4E at all. In fact I can say that in most aspects it is more fun for me than any previous edition. I think it has offered many improvements on the game play and I really enjoy the improvements with the DM side. My game prep is far easier than ever before. Am I interested in Pathfinder? Yes… if only I had more time! I just need to win the lottery so I can game all the time.
I will look forward to hearing more about your Pathfinder adventures!
Chadarius´s last blog ..DnD Honeymoon
The plethora of 4e books and D&D Insider subscription option are an understandable obstacle to 4e. It seems to me that WotC expects players to spend between $10 and $40 per month on the game. If you can’t afford (or don’t want) the books, you can subscribe to Insider. All that isn’t necessary to play (but some players will always want to try out “new” options.) As I mentioned earlier, your 4e experience will largely be affected by your attitude to rules and how much you allow them to influence your game. Nothing wrong with that of course, some folks prefer more structure than others.
The plethora of books was a way bigger problem in 3e than 4e. As a hard core gamer working in a gaming store at the time, I purchased literally every 3e hardcover book (I have a bunch of the 1e books too), even the Rules Compendium. And it didn’t help went a couple of the people in my group who weren’t hardcore gamers were designing characters for the Red Fang adventure. I had 2 power gamers and 3 casual gamers, and in order to keep the casuals up with the hardcores I had to step in and make some build choices for the casuals, even though were only using PHB, XPH and the Completes.
In the 4e game I run now, I have 3 powergamers and 2 casuals, and there’s NO disparity in effectiveness. I haven’t had to stop a design trap from happening to a player once, one of the casuals routinely dishes out the most damage in a fight with a beast master ranger, equaling the effectiveness of the Orb-Lock Bloodmage played by the powergamer.
That alone pretty much ensures that i’ll never have nostalgia for the mechanics of 3e.
Oh and I forgot to mention. If you pay the DDI fee one time, you get the character builder with all the stuff that has been published up to that point. For 8 dollars. That’s every piece of PC mechanics for 8 bucks, and you never have to buy anything else.
If you want to stay current, you can do like I did and pay 60 for the year (that’s 2 books, or 3 if you go on amazon) and get everything.
To stay current in 3e you would have had to pay about 30 a month. Or 60 to get the eberron or FR stuff as well.
Also as the DM, I can build an 5 level 14 encounters in an hour and a half.
It took that long to stat one freaking 15th level dragon in 3e.
I’m never looking back, but I hope those who stick with 3e/d20/pathfinder/fantasycraft enjoy their games, cause that’s what this is all about
lol! Nice Olfactatron! I have used the DDI and I liked it for character building and there wasn’t much for encounter building at the time. For 3.x, I used Redblade to build characters but it doesn’t look like the owner has time to work on it anymore which is unfortunate.
@Olfactatron Hey I passed on your economics to my wife and she’ll let me give it a try.
On Sunday, I said to my group I plan to not play 4e anymore…. Their response was OK we’ll see you in two weeks. I said you don’t understand I am done. They said OK so you want to play next week? I guess I will work with them until they no longer need a spare player to lock in a legal table of 4. Then I am done. I really just want to focus on one game again. Right now there are too may game choices out there in the world to try. I really want to try pathfinder.
shent_lodge´s last blog ..The map of Shent and Shent Lodge
Hey John…
I feel what you are going through with D&D4E. I own a store, run one (once was two) game of D&D4E, and now… I cannot wait to bring that game to legitamte stopping point.
Why?
Well… the last six books published for D&D4E by WotC look like they were handed a manuscript, ran it through a spell check, and then shipped it off (with art specs) to layout and printing. Practically no editing or continuity check whatsoever. It’s sad really, because GM prep for this system is pretty minimal compared to earlier versions. I like the structure of the game mechanics… I *DON’T* like the power creep, or the fact that WotC is encouraging an “everything-is-official-so-use-it-all” policy. It makes every game world feel the same…
ehhh… ulitmately… just some thoughts…
peace… GopherDave
GopherDave´s last blog ..Gopher Dice!
@GopherDave Thanks. It is interesting to hear from a store owners view. Looking at what Olfactatron said he was doing, it looks like you don’t have to have too big of an inventory of WotC books any more. It appears you can get access to everything for far less from DDI using Character Generator. I suppose WotC has not capitalized on Dice yet. As for DMing 4e is very easy on the brain and I will still run 4e once in a while if asked.
shent_lodge´s last blog ..Town of Yatton
My group reached the same conclusion with regards to 4E. We are all long-time D&D players, some of us back to the first hard-cover books. I play in two groups, a Monday night group at a local hobby store and our longest running group at my house on Saturday nights.
The Monday night group gave 4E a year. We bought all the books, the power cards, etc. and played from the intro module through several others. It never had the feel of D&D and, though we kept hoping that would change as we went up in levels and gained new abilities (New Magic cards really), it never did. Around 12th level the group elected to return to 3.5. As one of our players said, “I’m not quitting D&D. D&D quit us.”
My Saturday group looked over the 4E rules and refused to move from 3.5. This group of hard core players have always moved from one edition of D&D to the next without problem or complaint. But there is a saying we’ve used since 2nd edition came out; “When you have to roll to hit with magic missile, it won’t be D&D any longer.”
There are a couple of Monday night 4E groups at the hobby store and I’d heard a couple of players discussing their Friday night 4E group dropping it for Pathfinder. One of my Saturday group got me to download Pathfinder Beta and look it over. I did and I liked what I saw. When the core book came out we both bought a copy.
A couple of players in both groups bought the Pathfinder books, loaned them around, and everyone took a serious look at the system. Both groups have decided to move to Pathfinder and feel that we’ve found D&D again.
@Bobby, I am hearing similar stories from friends all over. The pathfinder beta download was a smart play by Paizo. I still have not played Pathfinder yet but I like what I have read so far. I plan to play it at Winter War here in Urbana IL.
shent_lodge´s last blog ..The Tortoise Ingersol
I like that 4E gives me all the monsters, classes, and magic items digitally, like the D20 SRD did for 3E, with the inclusion of every WotC book including ones I haven’t bought. I also like the emphasis on saving the DM work.
I don’t like how 4E combat seems slow and drawn-out, and we spend a lot of effort tracking and forgetting status effects. Even in third edition we often forgot status effects buffs, like Entropic Shield or Ethereal Jaunt. It seems like a bad design choice to base the core gameplay around that.
Jonathan Drain | D20 Source´s last blog ..D&D Ancient History, Part IV
Having played D&D for well..longer than I care to recall and loved it in all its forms, I can say this 4E thing is not D&D. That said let me say that 4E isnt a bad game, Ive played nearly every system atleast once and this is not a bad system..But we are talking about D&D, this 4E is a WoW hybrid. If I want to play WoW i’ll sign up and zone out and feed the Blizzard monster. I for one feel Pathfinder is more in the “spirit” of my beloved game and my group as turned away from 4E and made Pathfinder our system of choice to feed the D&D “need” so to speak. While I admit I dont like bright shiny new things and I two recall the funny wired phones with a dail of all things on them, A great deal of my group are “new” blood having only played 3-3.5E but they two read over 4E and found it lacking. Having vented now I can only hope that the next incarnation of D&D is something akin to the game of old, the rolls royce of fantasy rpgs. Thank you for the time and the forum to shake my fist at this system- The only cards D&D ever had in my opinion where the super handy spell cards that were nothing more than the spell stats in a card from..ahh 2E those were better days TSR days.
@Old D&D Coot, I had those spell cards, man they were cool until I left a set somewhere that had all my main spells for my wizard…
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