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	<title>Comments on: Power Gamers What Do You Do With Them?</title>
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		<title>By: shent_lodge</title>
		<link>http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/2010/02/07/power-gamers-what-do-you-do-with-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1091</link>
		<dc:creator>shent_lodge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 00:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/?p=2065#comment-1091</guid>
		<description>@Ryan You hit it on the spot. Some of my players have told me this before &quot;you’re “cheating” them out of the challenge of playing it as written&quot; when I said I can modify the module to run better. Then they grumble when the Dervish monk barbarian vampire attacks... Something I clearly would never allow to exist, ever, but that was the monster as written.

I think I just found a group that I am more in sync with. The group I write about here are all DMs, 3 out of seven are moderates and play the RPGA mods just to get a chance to play once in a while. The other 4 players are hardcore; I think a couple of them play 8days week, I am not sure, but I believe they found a way to power game time itself... They are all decent people just some days the power gaming takes away from the fun of playing the game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ryan You hit it on the spot. Some of my players have told me this before &#8220;you’re “cheating” them out of the challenge of playing it as written&#8221; when I said I can modify the module to run better. Then they grumble when the Dervish monk barbarian vampire attacks&#8230; Something I clearly would never allow to exist, ever, but that was the monster as written.</p>
<p>I think I just found a group that I am more in sync with. The group I write about here are all DMs, 3 out of seven are moderates and play the RPGA mods just to get a chance to play once in a while. The other 4 players are hardcore; I think a couple of them play 8days week, I am not sure, but I believe they found a way to power game time itself&#8230; They are all decent people just some days the power gaming takes away from the fun of playing the game.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/2010/02/07/power-gamers-what-do-you-do-with-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1090</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/?p=2065#comment-1090</guid>
		<description>I think Norman has a point.  You don&#039;t describe the entire group, but if you&#039;re the only one who isn&#039;t &quot;power gaming&quot; then maybe you&#039;re playing in the wrong group.

Everone gets something different out of the game, and for some people it is the mental exercise of trying to optimize their characters within the limits of the rules.  There&#039;s nothing wrong with this, it&#039;s a fairly natural reaction to having rules in the first place.  When most people are given a set of rules, they immediately try to think about how to do what they want to do (which might just be killing things) as effectively as possible within the constraints of those rules.  Adding an additional constraint to the game, such as &quot;requiring&quot; each of them to have a weakness, is really just changing the rules.

That being said, if you&#039;ve got &quot;power-games&quot;, there are two problems.  The first is a way to accomodate players with different styles at the same table.  A good DM writing their own material can usually manage this as long as the players aren&#039;t polar opposites (which it doesn&#039;t sound like they are in this case).  For example, the DM could generally direct high-crit attacks towards the players who are expecting them (opportunity attacks aside).  He could direct other types of challenges at players who enjoy more RP and less mechanics.

The second problem is how to challenge players who build very mechanically strong characters.  This is really fairly easy if you&#039;re a DM writing your own material, you just make harder monsters for combat encounters, and also add encounters that stress non-combat weaknesses of the characters (&quot;The thief flees across the scorching dessert.  What? you follow him in your plate armor?, a trickle of sweat drips down your brow&quot;).

However, wishing aside, the fact is that (in my opinion) D&amp;D is not a good system for people who enjoy the RP aspects more than the mechanical ones (I think what you&#039;re really looking for is something like the disadvantage systems in RPGs like L5R or White Wolf, which make it mechanically rewarding to play a character with flaws).  The RPGA modules compound that problem in that they shove the DM into a box that&#039;s geared only toward certain types of gamers.  Modifying the modules is probably a good start, but keep in mind that the other players may feel that you&#039;re &quot;cheating&quot; them out of the challenge of playing it as written.  Running different modules will help as well, I&#039;m not personally familiar with the high level LG modules, but I&#039;d guess that they were written by different authors, some of whom emphasized role-playing more than combat prowess.

However, overall, I&#039;d say that it sounds like you should either find a gaming group where the other players are interested in the same things as you or stick with your current group, but alternate the D&amp;D/LG game with a system that better supports your style of gaming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Norman has a point.  You don&#8217;t describe the entire group, but if you&#8217;re the only one who isn&#8217;t &#8220;power gaming&#8221; then maybe you&#8217;re playing in the wrong group.</p>
<p>Everone gets something different out of the game, and for some people it is the mental exercise of trying to optimize their characters within the limits of the rules.  There&#8217;s nothing wrong with this, it&#8217;s a fairly natural reaction to having rules in the first place.  When most people are given a set of rules, they immediately try to think about how to do what they want to do (which might just be killing things) as effectively as possible within the constraints of those rules.  Adding an additional constraint to the game, such as &#8220;requiring&#8221; each of them to have a weakness, is really just changing the rules.</p>
<p>That being said, if you&#8217;ve got &#8220;power-games&#8221;, there are two problems.  The first is a way to accomodate players with different styles at the same table.  A good DM writing their own material can usually manage this as long as the players aren&#8217;t polar opposites (which it doesn&#8217;t sound like they are in this case).  For example, the DM could generally direct high-crit attacks towards the players who are expecting them (opportunity attacks aside).  He could direct other types of challenges at players who enjoy more RP and less mechanics.</p>
<p>The second problem is how to challenge players who build very mechanically strong characters.  This is really fairly easy if you&#8217;re a DM writing your own material, you just make harder monsters for combat encounters, and also add encounters that stress non-combat weaknesses of the characters (&#8220;The thief flees across the scorching dessert.  What? you follow him in your plate armor?, a trickle of sweat drips down your brow&#8221;).</p>
<p>However, wishing aside, the fact is that (in my opinion) D&amp;D is not a good system for people who enjoy the RP aspects more than the mechanical ones (I think what you&#8217;re really looking for is something like the disadvantage systems in RPGs like L5R or White Wolf, which make it mechanically rewarding to play a character with flaws).  The RPGA modules compound that problem in that they shove the DM into a box that&#8217;s geared only toward certain types of gamers.  Modifying the modules is probably a good start, but keep in mind that the other players may feel that you&#8217;re &#8220;cheating&#8221; them out of the challenge of playing it as written.  Running different modules will help as well, I&#8217;m not personally familiar with the high level LG modules, but I&#8217;d guess that they were written by different authors, some of whom emphasized role-playing more than combat prowess.</p>
<p>However, overall, I&#8217;d say that it sounds like you should either find a gaming group where the other players are interested in the same things as you or stick with your current group, but alternate the D&amp;D/LG game with a system that better supports your style of gaming.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman Harman</title>
		<link>http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/2010/02/07/power-gamers-what-do-you-do-with-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1087</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Harman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 01:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/?p=2065#comment-1087</guid>
		<description>The only good solution I&#039;ve found is to not game with peoples whose play style is dramatically different than yours.
.-= Norman Harman´s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://trollandflame.blogspot.com/2010/02/north-texas-rpg-con.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;North Texas RPG Con&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only good solution I&#8217;ve found is to not game with peoples whose play style is dramatically different than yours.<br />
.-= Norman Harman´s last blog ..<a href="http://trollandflame.blogspot.com/2010/02/north-texas-rpg-con.html" rel="nofollow">North Texas RPG Con</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: shent_lodge</title>
		<link>http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/2010/02/07/power-gamers-what-do-you-do-with-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1086</link>
		<dc:creator>shent_lodge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 23:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/?p=2065#comment-1086</guid>
		<description>What is cool about the group is I really get to iron down the rules. I did hook up with a whole new bunch of players for Pathfinder and the emphasis in the PF game is on fun and role play. So I am balanced as a gamer too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is cool about the group is I really get to iron down the rules. I did hook up with a whole new bunch of players for Pathfinder and the emphasis in the PF game is on fun and role play. So I am balanced as a gamer too.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Holland</title>
		<link>http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/2010/02/07/power-gamers-what-do-you-do-with-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1085</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Holland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/?p=2065#comment-1085</guid>
		<description>While I enjoy a good tactical combat now and then and everyone likes to have an effective character, the group you decribe just does not sound like much fun to play with.  Building super characters is a fun mental exercises but I do not see much point in it beyond that.  As you say, it is far more interesting to play characters with weaknesses.
.-= Sean Holland´s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://seaofstarsrpg.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/curse-traitorous-tithe/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Curse – Traitorous Tithe&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I enjoy a good tactical combat now and then and everyone likes to have an effective character, the group you decribe just does not sound like much fun to play with.  Building super characters is a fun mental exercises but I do not see much point in it beyond that.  As you say, it is far more interesting to play characters with weaknesses.<br />
.-= Sean Holland´s last blog ..<a href="http://seaofstarsrpg.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/curse-traitorous-tithe/" rel="nofollow">Curse – Traitorous Tithe</a> =-.</p>
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